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Questions and problems with the battery or charger | It does not charge, does not charge well, holds a charge poorly, etc.



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All questions regarding the problems outlined in the title of the topic and similar problems - ask here.

1. If your battery is 300 years old - you should not be surprised why problems arise with it, first you need to purchase a new one, in any case it will be needed.
2. If your battery and device is 2 hours old, do a few full charge / discharge cycles (rather, for personal reassurance).
3. Check the performance of your chargers.
4. Constantly charging from BB is not recommended.
Why? We read here.
GudVladSPB @ 9.7.10, 7:54 *
The charging processes themselves and from the charger differ little and the end result is the same. In terms of influence on the battery life, there is no difference. The problem for the battery may be that when working with a computer connected to a computer communicator, the battery is constantly charged to a maximum (if charging is allowed) and is still heated by the working communicator - and the combination of high temperature and high voltage on the battery is very poorly affected by its service life. Specialists in batteries believe that the main reason for premature aging batteries in laptops - work from the network with the battery inserted (charged to maximum and is pretty heated by working laptop
After charging is complete, the charging controller (chip on the motherboard of the communicator) stops charging the battery completely and turns it on again if the battery voltage drops below a certain limit. The communicator itself at this time takes the current to its work from an external source. If the communicator is not used (in sleep mode), the consumption is small and naturally it is cold. Absolutely the same will be if you charge from the computer port - but only in that caseif the communicator does not use at this time . Usually, the communicator is connected to the computer port not only for charging but also using it intensively. For example, I now use my Desire to connect to the Internet by connecting the cable to a netbook. Wherein:
1. The battery is charged to the maximum, the communicator is powered from the computer port through the chip of the charging controller on the communicator motherboard. At the input of the controller is 5.0V, at the output of 4.2V, the difference is released on the controller as heat
2. I sit in the country, the signal level is small - the radio channel threshes to the maximum
3. The communicator is constantly in operation - processor, memory, etc. eat and pretty warm.
The result - the communicator is not that warm but hot and warms up the battery. The battery itself is practically not used at this time, but is charged to the maximum and is fairly heated by a working communicator - which is very bad for its health (a combination of high voltage and high temperature).
Those. For a battery, the fact of charging from the port is not bad, namely the combination of voltage and temperature. You can, for example, charge from the network memory and connect to the computer via bluetooth - but it will only get worse (the warm-up from the working bluetooth will be added). You can turn off charging - but the battery sits down with such use very quickly and you have to monitor its condition. Therefore, I do not bother and connect with a cable - and how much battery will live, such is his fate

5. It is not recommended to use non-original chargers regularly, but sometimes to revive the battery or to start a device that does not turn on, you can use frog charge which charges the battery separately from the device. It costs quite inexpensively and it looks like this -
Attached Image


6. If nothing helped, if the device dropped, swam, overheated, etc. - we turn to the SC (service center) for miracles do not happen.

7. The standard way to check a hardware problem or software (buggy software or hardware):
1. make a backup ( Spb backup - recommend)
2. XP (Terms and jargonandHard reset - how to do? )
3. On a clean device, check the performance, if the problem disappears - it means that some program creates it, if it remains, it means either the firmware or the hardware. Reflash (to be sure with different firmware several times, right up to the very first official one), if after that nothing has changed, then the road to the SC is a hardware problem)
4. you can restore the data from the backup when you finally decide what to do


8. Mandatory links:
8.1. Battery calibration
8.2. Batteries - personal experience. Who and how much is enough?
8.3. Lithium Batteries - Operating Rules
8.4.
General information which necessarily need to understand the charging-battery system itself:

Thank youGudVladSPB ( here is the original post )

Many questions arise due to a misunderstanding of how the battery-charging system itself works. I decided to collect in one place that I collected on various topics of this and other forums, in publications. A lot of information is duplicated by posts - but all in one place, which is better for understanding.

8.4.1. Battery Operating Voltage Range
The voltage described in the descriptions of the lithium-ion battery 3.7V is the average value of the voltage when discharging from maximum to minimum values
The maximum voltage to which the batteries are usually charged with 4.18 - 4.20 V. Batteries if more - the battery life is sharply reduced, the container decreases. Manages charging controller charging on the motherboard communicator, it also determines the maximum charging voltage. To change the voltage usually you need to overpass the controller. In the topic about communicators, the Rover discussed the problem - in some batch, controllers with high voltage were dripped (it seems 4.23 V) - the batteries began to run. Now the truth appeared controllers in which the basic parameters are programmed. The integrated overvolt in the battery itself is usually calculated for 4.3 V - the battery will not explode, but as a charge limiter cannot be used, only as the last batch protection.
The minimum voltage is 3.4 -3.6 V, it does not make much sense to discharge below - the voltage drops very sharply with discharge, there will be practically no gain. The driver gives the shutdown command, and it focuses not on the voltage, but on the residual charge calculated or received from the battery controller. In order for the 0% value to correspond to the really minimum voltage and periodic calibration is needed (unless the residual charge is simply determined from the voltage-capacity table)
Calibration does not always help - the people simply disables the driver. Then the communicator usually turns off at a voltage of 3.0 - 3.2 V simply from a stress shortage for normal operation. It is equivalent to turning off the computer by pulling the cord from the outlet with all possible problems. It should be taken into account as an increase in the internal convention of the battery with age, which leads to a strong dependence of the output voltage of the battery from the load current and manifests itself in the unexpected self-power of the communicator, for example, when the consumption current is called).
If the battery for some reason is discharged below 3.0 V, there may be problems charging. If during charging the charging controller detects that the voltage on the battery is less than 3V, then first the controller will limit the charging current to no more than 50 mA until the voltage on the battery reaches 3.0V. The mode is limited in time - in this way bad batteries are detected, charging them with a nominal current can lead to cans depressurization (explosion).
The over-discharge protection built into the battery usually disconnects the banks' leads from the external battery leads if the voltage drops below 2.7 - 2.4 V (depends on the type of chip embedded in the controller). There will also be problems with charging - access to the conclusions of the bank itself from the external terminals of the battery when an external voltage is applied goes through current-limiting circuits (several tens of mA) until the bank is charged to the threshold voltage.
It is impossible to discharge the lithium-ion battery below 2 V - if it remains in this state for some time, internal processes make it impossible to continue using the battery (it may explode)



8.4.2. Charger
The charging algorithm and the charger itself for communicators differ significantly from the algorithm and charging phones of a number of manufacturers. For example, the Nokia 6700 phone is a whole two charging controller, one charges from the branded "fine" connector, the other from the MicroUSB connector. In the first case, the controller takes the entire current from the memory which this charger can give - the charger operates in the current limitation mode. If you connect a smaller charging - the battery will be charged with this reduced current, and vice versa. For a long time, Nokia branded charging - write 5V and 750 mA and actually gives more than 7B and strongly depends on the current. It turns out to be 5V if the load current is 750 mA, with further increase in current, the voltage drops sharply - the current stabilization mode.
When charging through the microUSB, the algorithm is completely different. Here it is understood that the charger is simply a source of stabilized voltage (which is the power source of the USB port of the computer), which must provide the current requested charging controller. This current no longer depends on the ability ability - it is determined by the charging controller itself (if only the memory could be able to give the TCT). A funny situation - I have a Nokia 6700 perfectly charged from the NTS charger through microUSB, but refused to charge through the adapter and the "thin" connector ("unsupported memory") and vice versa - branded charged through the "thin" and buggy through microUSB.
The communicators use the second option - the charger is just a source of stabilized voltage. Since the communicator must be charged and the USB port immediately imposes restrictions on the voltage and the maximum current that the communicator can consume from an external source (unless you take special measures, which are lower) - a voltage of 5V, a current of not more than 500 mA (according to specifications for USB) .
Some (for example, ASUS P525 - P750) limit consumption to an even lower level of 100 mA (maximum current from USB 1 or a splitter). To enable 500 mA, ASUS receives via the interface data from the computer about the load capacity of the corresponding port and includes the maximum allowable current. Most communicators simply limit the current consumption from the port to 500 mA.
A powerful communicator during operation can consume more than 500 mA, the battery with such a current limitation from the charger will be discharged and not charged. From the memory you could take more current but how to distinguish the connection to the zoom from connecting to the port? Now, in most cases, contacts 2 and 3 (data bus) in the USB connector are simply embedded. So do in ASUS, HTC HD, HTC Max, HTC Diamond2. For example, in HTC D2 if you connect the memory with open contacts 2 and 3, the charging controller will limit the consumption at the level of about 450 mA, if the contacts 2 and 3 closes the restriction will already be about 900 mA. Similarly, HTC HD and HTC Max. HTC X7500 otherwise - there is a need to close the contacts x and 4 in the miniUSB, consumption restrictions are changed similarly. In the standard charging ASUS PXXX, HTC HD, HTC MAX, HTC D2 Contacts 2 and 3 are closed.
It makes no sense to use charging calculated for a current of more than 1A - until I heard about communicators in which the charging controller would limit the current consumption from charging to a level greater than 1A.
Charging from the port is a little different from charging with a charger - only with current, the final charge will be the same. In some communicators, the charging controller will not turn on charging until data is exchanged with the computer (accordingly, the communicator must be turned on and recognized by the BB)



8.4.3. Battery charging and charge measurement
1. Charge controller (a chip on the communicator's motherboard) is only charged with charging the battery and choosing a source for powering the communicator - an external source or a battery. Its task is to form the correct battery charging algorithm - in two stages
Stage 1 - charging with direct current to the voltage limit (about 4.2 V). Switching to the second stage occurs when the battery is charged up to about 85%
Stage 2 - further charging is performed by a smoothly falling current while keeping this voltage constant (4.2 V). Charging continues until the current drops to a value of about 3% of the original (15 -30 mA). This stage takes about an hour.
After that, charging stops completely and turns on again only if the voltage on the battery drops below a certain value or reconnect the external source (but in this case the criterion for fully charging the battery will be performed immediately and charging will stop again). With this algorithm, the battery will be charged as fully as possible regardless of the initial current (it can be different - the communicator is turned on or off when charging, from which source it is connected). The chip limitsconsumption current from an external source:
Current consumption from an external source = battery charging current + current for communicator operation
more resources are involved - the communicator itself consumes more - less charging current remains.
The chip also controls the temperature of the battery - one of the conclusions on the battery is the output of the thermistor located in the battery, and the charge controller determines the temperature of the battery by its resistance. If below 0 degrees or above the set value - chargingby hardware (in the chip of the charging controller) is prohibited.
So The charging controller monitors only the maximum voltage value on the battery, not allowing its exceeds. To what voltage the battery is discharged - it does not care. The only thing is if when charging the controller detects that the battery voltage is less than 3B, then first charging the controller will limit the value of no more than 50 mA until the battery voltage reaches 3.0V. The mode is limited in time - in such a way bad batteries are determined, the charging of which the rated current can lead to depressurization of the bank (explosion). Also, this chip is in no way involved in calculating the degree of charge of the battery.

2. From the output of the charging controller, unstabilized voltage = battery voltage is fed to the chipnutrition manager On the motherboard of the communicator, and already this chip produces several stabilized voltages for powering the nodes of the communicator.
Often, the unstable operation of the communicator or increased consumption is associated with these chips or with their environment (capacitors, diodes, etc.)

3. Battery controller (the one located in the battery itself) is mainly necessary to protect the lithium-ion banks from overvoltage, overdischarge, short circuits, and reverse polarity of the input voltage. Improper use of lithium-ion batteries (unlike other types) can lead to sad consequences PDA batteries (Post # 2713947) , therefore, protection was designed for them in the form of a battery controller.
In many cases (but not always), another chip is added to the battery controller, which is involved in calculating the state of charge of the battery. More about this in the link.Lithium batteries - operating rules (Post # 2730352). Very briefly the essence: the incoming / outgoing charge is measured by a specialized chip in the battery controller and transmits information via a single-wire interface to the host (communicator), the driver calculates and issues%.
If this chip is not in the battery controller, the degree of charge is calculated simply by the voltage - on the motherboard there is an ADC that measures the voltage of the battery and the degree of charge of the battery is calculated from the table wired into the driver.
In most modern communicators, battery controllers have a similar chip. Criterion for determining the degree of charge 100% (and green indicator) is similar to that it is used in the charging controller (on the example of the DS2780 gauge chip): the voltage exceeded the maximum value (the threshold is installed slightly lower than in the charging controller), the charging current is gradually reduced and reaches a minimum level ( The threshold is slightly higher than the current at which the charging controller completely stops charging). Perhaps where other chips of the meter algorithm are used somewhat different. But in any case, the charging controller (only it determines how to charge the battery and when stopping charging) and the degree of charge degree (no way affects the battery charging) is independent of each other. Those. The green indicator does not mean that the charging has completely stopped (with the communicator enabled) and vice versa: the battery can be fully charged and the indicator does not generize anything (helps CP).



8.4.4. Battery internal resistance
Normally, the system responds to the discharge of the battery, the system reacts with a sequential disconnection of power consumption (WiFi, etc.) and shutdown at 0%. The process of measuring the degree of charges is very inertial and does not respond to rapid changes in voltage (while electronics is very sensitive to short-term stress phael). And the larger the internal resistance of the battery, the greater the stress drawdown when loading the load - for example, with an incoming call or receiving data.
Uout= Uemf- Iheatx Rinternal
With a small average, the voltage consumption is sufficient,% of the degree of charge of far from critical - but there is a current sharply increase (the incoming call is the current pulse can be very large) with a large inner resistance the voltage is described below the permissible limit, the system is disconnected (or hangs). The internal resistance of a good-lit-ion of the battery does not exceed 0.2 ohms, with age increases to a greater extent than in the batteries of other types. Usually, the greater the battery capacity is less internal resistance. Contact resistance similarly.
How to measure the internal resistance:
For example, what I intended in HTC MAX:
battery charge level 70%
50 mA current consumption - battery voltage 3.917 V
consumption current 362 mA - battery voltage 3.863 V
Internal resistance = (3.917 - 3.863) / (0.362 - 0.050) = 0.173 Ohm




8.4.5. Finding solutions to battery problems
Often, problems with the battery are not caused by the battery bank, but by the glitches of this meter (chip or driver).
The state of battery charging can be assessed by 4 parameters:
1. The maximum voltage on the battery without load is 4.18 - 4.2 V. If less - problems are possible with a charger (low voltage) or with a charging controller on the communicator motherboard
2. Minimum voltage - the voltage at which the communicator is turned off when working with a minimum load. Depends on temperature, usually 3.4 - 3.6 V at room temperature. If more - most likely a problem with the calibration of the meter. It makes no sense to discharge below these values ​​- the voltage drops very sharply, there is no noticeable gain.
3. Internal resistance - on a good lithium ion, usually not more than 0.2 Ohms. It manifests itself in an unexpected self-shutdown of the device with a sharp increase in load (incoming call) with a seemingly sufficient charge level. Depends heavily on temperature - why lithium ion do not work well in cold weather. For example: I arrived at the dacha, it’s cold, the temperature of the communicator as on the street is about 5 degrees, it turned off and does not turn on. He put it to the stove, warmed up to about 40 degrees - turned on and worked for another 45 minutes.
4. The contact resistance of the battery - the body of the communicator. Although they are gilded, it can be increased. It manifests itself similarly to internal resistance, only does not depend on temperature. To clean with an eraser (in no case emery - remove the coating)
Also see item 7 in the topic header.
Knowing the answers to these points, you can say something about the problem: the battery itself is to blame, some programs, or you need to calibrate the meter.
Calibration meter is discussed in the topic.Battery calibration


9. Necessary links:
9.1. Repair and service , and - Service for our machines and Service, exchange and return of PC and other equipment , even more links - in the subject Guide to help the user to repair
9.2. Rules of operation from the manufacturer
9.3. Schemes and service of PDAs

9.4. Experiment with alternative charges / batteries
9.5. PDA batteries, Repair / Operation / DIY, etc.
9.6. Question about the soft-method of solving problems with the battery
9.7. HTC Universal - Battery Recovery
9.8. No battery

9.9. Programs for forced discharge and battery log - Powerdetect and further Mobadi
9.10. Disconnect / enable USB charging
9.11. Mute signal low charge. Still suitable for this - BatOff. Cancel the shutdown of the telephone module when the charge is below 10% - Samsung WiTu - FAQ (Post # 2504660)
9.12. Software catalogsavagemessiahzine.com - 1. 45. All about batteries

9.13. Charger for communicators with mini / microUSB
9.14. PDA Batteries - homemade products.
9.15. Solving the problem of fast battery discharge after daylight saving time.

10. It looks like this:
10.1. Disassembled charging plug -
Attached Image

Attached Image

The USB cable consists of 4 copper conductors - 2 power tests and 2 data conductor in twisted pair, and grounded straps / screen. The data is transmitted in the so-called differential mode by Tires D + and D-, i.e. Both guides are needed for receiving or data transfer. The quality of the cable is largely determined by the quality of the twisted pair of the data bus - if it is bad that errors occur when working at high speeds (it cannot work with the USB2 interface, although via USB1 can no problem - but the speed is less). It does not affect charging, the only thing is that if the communicator is not identified by the computer (malfunctions) when charging from the port of the company - there may be options as described in the header, paragraph 8.4.2 (under the spoiler).
The contact denoted by X (or NC, ID) is often used to identify the type of connection (headset, charger, car speakerphone) or not at all.
The miniUSB connectors come with a large number of contacts using HTC's extUSB type (but, unlike it, are compatible in both directions, cable extUSB cannot be plugged into a miniUSB box - on the contrary, you can). Additional contacts are usually used to transmit audio, but unfortunately there is no uniformity in the appointment of these additional contacts, you need to check the performance with a specific device.

10.2. Work chargers on the PDA
10.3. Various popular methods for extending battery life:
Karl @ 14.9.08, 13:28*
On the forum in different places there were messages like "very quickly began to sit the battery." The day before yesterday I myself got into the same situation (Touch Cruise, but I think it is not fundamentally). The experimental way was focused that: a) it starts after charging on Yusb from a laptop, this most laptop turn off, but to the device to leave connected to Yusb.B) after the device discharged for the night is charged, nothing changes (t .. Discharge still goes fast) c) For treatment, you need to pull out and re-insert the battery. At the same time, if, for example, before removing the device, it claims that it is charged by 35%, then after the insertion immediately shows 9%. M.) After charging from the "Up to Complete" network, everything comes back to normal. Vidimo Battery calibration. Why - FIG knows ...
- Original post.
mazzzafaka @ 9.1.10, 17:16*
I made a battery calibration. those. Fully charged, then my PDA turned off, I pulled out a battery for 3 hours out of it, then inserted into the PDA, and completely charged, such a circle did 3 times. Then I installed the program that downloaded from this site (what is the type of battery control, where in the settings put a tick to "ignore the autotrunction". Then in the registry in the HKLM \ Drivers \ BUILTIN \ BATTERY branch found the DLL - battdrvr.dll parameter and renamed it. I rebooted the PDA. Now I do not redeem, the PDA began to work once in 5 longer !!! Now when the state of the battery shows 0%, the PDA does not turn off, in such a state it worked hard for about 6 hours !! What was not there before !! The result is not even not bad, because the PDA used to work for about 2 hours from power !! PS I have LG GM730
Original post.


10.4. The list of online stores where you can find batteries for our devices:


Say "Thank you" by increasing your reputation. If you have less than 15 messages - click on the "Complaint" on the message where they helped you, and write who helped you.
Special thanks for the help in filling the topic and qualified explanations, dearGudVladSPB

Post has been editedromchk - 30.01.11, 18:39



Rep: (1377)
At the forum in different places were messages like "the battery began to sit down very quickly." The day before yesterday I myself got into the same situation (touch cruise, but I think it doesn’t matter). It was experimentally determined that:
A) it starts after charging this laptop from the laptop while turning it off, but leave the device connected to it.
b) after the device is discharged overnight, nothing changes (i.e., the discharge goes quickly anyway)
c) for treatment, you need to pull out and re-insert the battery. At the same time, if, for example, before removing the device, it claims that it is charged at 35%, then after insertion it immediately shows 9%.
g) after charging from the network "to full" everything comes back to normal.

Apparently, with this, the calibration of the battery "flies". Why - dunno ...



Rep: (1)
but you can write again and then nefig I can not eat: russian_garmoshka:



Rep: (1311)
Burn energy Stop smoking and unplug the PDA from the laptop, before turning off the laptop, and if it is not disconnected, then pull the Akum out of the PDA and reinsert it, and then charge, but not from the laptop, but from the outlet. So clearer?



Rep: (0)
I put a plus sign. useful info



Rep: (0)
Almost in all instrakh to animals write (we recommend charging from the outlet from the computer as a last resort if there is no outlet) instructions who reads to the end? : thank_you:



Rep: (2)
Faced with the rapid discharge of the battery. I bought a new one, it did not help. Gone went to the PDA service. It turned out that with the camera drivers and the bluetooth driver turned off (turned off to increase memory while navigating from the IGO using the program from the forum), the beast constantly searches for them and thus sets the battery down strongly. Now I turn off drivers only when I use IGO8. And I have a spare battery in stock: D



Rep: (0)
Guys, I have this problem. Uranil his little animal (E-TEN x500) on the floor, then put it on charging from the BB. in the morning he got up, scratched his turnip, did not understand the battery was discharged Tried from the network for five seconds, charges and charging disappears. I visited the battery to pull out, did not help.
P.S. I saw somewhere on the forum I can not find a similar problem. Help who than can.

Post has been editedBalu - 01.10.08, 08:41



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Laugh laugh, but really keeps a little ...: thank_you:thanks for the information



Rep: (2021)
The problem is that many programs on the animal do not completely close + the telephone network!
I solved this problem simply - I put the program “FAST menu” - it is put on the card, there is no memory and a lot of usefulness — in particular, close all programs, an icon with a digital indicator of charge and memory, and most importantly memory optimization!
I highly recommend it!
And it’s better to charge from the network, and not from the computer (although it should also charge to the end, but much longer!



Rep: (6)
Let’s continue the theme of the people here? ;)
Battery calibration <---- Link ...

There is more information from users about this, but here are also very good arguments ...

Post has been editedSeregAxZar - 15.10.08, 20:06



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it doesn’t help my battery anymore



Rep: (0)
Problem! 0
The phone function on the animal is turned off. Writes - "Low battery, phone function disabled." It turns off even with a full battery, and even when charging. I tried HZ - it does not help. I tried to get into the phone settings - it says "unknown SIM status" asks for a PIN. I enter the PIN - does not respond !!!! The rest of the software runs!
Hunters help!



Rep: (1210)
RedGercog,
try to calibrate the battery, if possible, try with another battery
exactly did XP? (not CP?)

Post has been editedromchk - 11.05.09, 18:46



Rep: (0)
I have 2 batteries in the standard kit! And extra charge for batteries separately! Both tried! That XP did! I'm afraid the problem is not in the battery even ..... The beast itself sees that the battery is normal, i.e. viewing the charge shows (90% -! 00%)! Yes, and you can’t force the phone to turn on! Read SIM contacts also does not work!

Post has been editedRedgercog - 11.05.09, 18:54



Rep: (1210)
RedGercog,
I see such options -
1. Try calibration.
2. Try 5-6 XP in a row.
3. Try the firmware.
4. SC.



Rep: (89)
Hello.

The problem is the following, the last few days the battery holds no more than a day, although it used to hold 30-35 hours when using bluetooth for 3-5 hours a day (bluetooth heating). Despite the fact that during the night the charge itself can drop by approximately 20%. I understand that it's time to change the battery or can it somehow be put into shape? =)



Rep: (2223)
Hell_chief, many factors can influence. For example - installed any gorging battery software.
The best thing is to find another battery and check the device with it.
If the other battery sits down too - the problem is in the device.
Threat! Strip the contacts of the battery and the contact group on the device with a paper clip - we can oxidize ....



Rep: (89)
If the software was new, I would check it right away. The point is definitely not in the software ... I'll try to clean the contacts.



Rep: (89)
I am not a great specialist in batteries, but read that the batteries can crumble from vibration (the soldering, the state of the elements). We have a device for 1.5 years, how much I use it, almost always he will be in the morning. During the bell of the alarm, he vibrates quite strongly (she used to notice, for a sleepy head, something is not something). I removed the vibration, but I understand that there will be little from this, maybe it will move away with time? The new battery is as expensive, I will then be better for another summer and buy the device today. Can someone know where you can read about the recovery of battered batteries? I remember long somewhere I read but could not find again.



Rep: (1)
Hi everyone.
HTC Gene bought half a year ago.
During this time, the battery began to keep the built-in charge for less than a day.
did all the manipulations to revive him. but I do not observe the result of cheto ..
Here I think to buy a new battery.
I searched the Internet and the question arose: which one to choose?

By searching for 3.7V / 1250mAh there are batteries of some unknown manufacturers, there is also a "PDA HTC P3400 analogue Li-ion / 1200mAh" and there is HTC "AcmePower for P3400"

the difference in price between the first and last - from 17 to 60 ye ..
who bought what? Is there a difference and in what?
thank!!


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